[CANUFNET] Looking for hard surface planting experiences/successes

[Mike James]

Paver Grates!!

Hardscape Planting with Paver grates is designing for failure.

As the bottom of the grate sits 4-6" or more below grade the soil grade in the tree pit is now 4-8" below grade.
More often than not when the tree gets big enough so that the first paver needs to be removed and the grate cut back...the whole grate is removed instead.
The aversion to maintenance means most streets dept. won't monitor the tree growth and cut back the grate multiple times over several years.

Once the grate is removed, you now have a tree that is planted 4-8" below grade in a 4' x 4' "hole".  Of course the streets dept. sees this as a liability and either fills it with soil to grade or even worse asphalt.
You know the rest of the story from there...

Urban design and Landscape Architects may have a "vision" for how the surface should look, but it can't be at the expense of the long term survival of the tree.


Michael James  |  General Manager
t 800 561 3883 m 604 220 9521
DeepRoot Canada Corp.
LinkedIn | Flickr | Twitter | Blog
Silva Cells - Proudly Made in Canada

-----Original Message-----
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Sent: Monday, October 16, 2023 9:00 AM
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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Looking for hard surface planting experiences/successes
      (stephen at ufora.ca)
   2. Re: Looking for hard surface planting experiences/successes
      (Sadia Butt)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2023 09:37:56 -0400
From: <stephen at ufora.ca>
To: "'Canadian Urban Forest Network'" <canufnet at list.web.net>
Subject: Re: [CANUFNET] Looking for hard surface planting
        experiences/successes
Message-ID: <014a01d9f85a$543d7840$fcb868c0$@ufora.ca>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="iso-8859-1"

Accumulation of salty water in the root zones killed off a lot of trees on a couple of major street rebuilds here in Toronto. The drainage system built into the installations wasn't installed properly so there were pockets where the water wouldn't drain and the roots were sitting in salt water for weeks.


In one case the soil that was used to fill the holes was extremely poor subsoil not what was specified.  There seemed to be no adequate supervision when it was being installed.

Have someone competent and with the authority to order corrections standing over the work crews to make sure they do what is intended and not take shortcuts or accept substandard materials just to get the job done on time and on budget. Don't rely on guarantees to ensure the contractor does what they're supposed to - make sure they do it. No excuses. Get someone who has done the work before successfully design it not the junior designer on staff with no experience.

There is no substitute for having somebody who cares about the result on site all the time to make sure things are done properly.  Relying or written specs, contracts and guarantees to get things right has resulted in a system of everybody being able to shift the blame for mistakes onto others (and they have ways of avoiding it too) and the public ends up paying twice to get what they wanted in the first place.  Lowest bid isn't the only way.

The most expensive tree planting is a failed planting, because you have to pay to do it again.

Stephen Smith
Urban Forest Associates
Urban Forestry & Ecological Restoration
http://www.ufora.ca/
Office/fax 416-423-3387
Cell 416-707-2164

-----Original Message-----
From: CANUFNET <canufnet-bounces at list.web.net> On Behalf Of Michael Richardson via CANUFNET
Sent: Friday, October 6, 2023 7:34 AM
To: Canadian Urban Forest Network <canufnet at list.web.net>
Cc: Michael Richardson <mrtree at kos.net>
Subject: Re: [CANUFNET] Looking for hard surface planting experiences/successes

Barriers to successful planting include:

- Too much water;
- Too little water;
- Deicing salt;
- Lack of organic matter;
- Wrong tree for site;
- Lack of space;
- Lack of funding;
- People;
etc.

There are lots of good books concerning trees and urban sites but very few mention the important secret: site inspection and assessment and planning is needed by competent people prior to specifying plants, let alone planting.
The possession of a professional stamp, certification, or qualification does not necessarily mean that the staff are experts for the specific task.
There are failed planting attempts across southern Ontario municipalities; the cause of the failure is often due to lack of knowledgeable assessment planning.

The question we should all be asking is: do we spend our money planting many trees and hoping for the best, or do we spend our money on a few trees and ensure they have the planning, space, and after care, to allow them to thrive and reach useful sizes.

Shigo says Touch Trees; I suggest that you cannot plan for trees without Touching Soils at the initial phase.

M


> Dear urban forestry colleagues,
>
> We are working on a project with our local Business Improvement
> Association in Ottawa to examine the barriers around successful hard
> surface tree establishment along our main street, and how to overcome
> them. We have completed a cursory literature review, but with limited
> data, I am reaching out to the UF community with hopes that some of
> you will be willing to share your anecdotal experiences on what you
> feel are the best ways to plant trees successfully in hard surfaces.
> We recognize that soil volume is a significant barrier, and will be
> making recommendations to increase this, where possible, and
> incorporate the use of soil cells, if feasible. For situations where
> this is not an option, what are the next best alternatives?
>
> If any of you have experience in your areas with hard surface
> planting, I would appreciate learning from you!
>
> Please feel free to contact me directly if you prefer:
> astrid.nielsen at dendronforestry.ca
>
> Thank you,
>
> Astrid
> ___________________________________
> *Astrid Nielsen, *MFC
> Ontario Registered Professional Forester ISA Certified Arborist?? ISA
> Tree Risk Assessment Qualified
>
> astrid.nielsen at dendron <astrid.nielsen at dendronforestry.ca>forestry.ca
> <astrid.nielsen at dendronforestry.ca>
> +1.613.805.WOOD (9663)
>
> http://www.d/
> endronforestry.ca%2F&data=05%7C01%7C%7C95f1a65449f1423c9e8408dbce60f86
> 2%7C7a8ed4b96a0b4839be94c2c098cbedd9%7C0%7C0%7C638330688144411758%7CUn
> known%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haW
> wiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=JyJsXGWDDwUO%2BczspDVQVtxuULM2q
> 7w0qbOxbP8tod8%3D&reserved=0
>






------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2023 11:22:17 -0400
From: Sadia Butt <sadiabutt.ca at gmail.com>
To: Canadian Urban Forest Network <canufnet at list.web.net>
Subject: Re: [CANUFNET] Looking for hard surface planting
        experiences/successes
Message-ID:
        <CAA2J2=wO9eOgZLMj8rEcohck8=cdoiy72MV8ERExQ66HsB73Nw at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Dear Stephen, Thanks for this email as it outlines that you need to have a knowledgeable person who is vested in the outcome of trees on site ensuring that trees survive.
We (forestry and other tree expert colleagues)  are seeing the same with new tree planting practices and current mulching trends in southern Ontario. Trees are being planted too high and volcano mulched.
We are all working so hard to increase tree plantings and increase municipal canopy cover percentages, that oversight at these critical stages is negligence.
We cannot rely on warranty replacements to build our respective forest canopies in a timely fashion.
Thanks again Stephen.
Best regards
Sadia




On Mon, Oct 16, 2023 at 8:53?AM Stephen Smith via CANUFNET < canufnet at list.web.net> wrote:

> Accumulation of salty water in the root zones killed off a lot of
> trees on a couple of major street rebuilds here in Toronto. The
> drainage system built into the installations wasn't installed properly
> so there were pockets where the water wouldn't drain and the roots
> were sitting in salt water for weeks.
>
>
> In one case the soil that was used to fill the holes was extremely
> poor subsoil not what was specified.  There seemed to be no adequate
> supervision when it was being installed.
>
> Have someone competent and with the authority to order corrections
> standing over the work crews to make sure they do what is intended and
> not take shortcuts or accept substandard materials just to get the job
> done on time and on budget. Don't rely on guarantees to ensure the
> contractor does what they're supposed to - make sure they do it. No
> excuses. Get someone who has done the work before successfully design
> it not the junior designer on staff with no experience.
>
> There is no substitute for having somebody who cares about the result
> on site all the time to make sure things are done properly.  Relying
> or written specs, contracts and guarantees to get things right has
> resulted in a system of everybody being able to shift the blame for
> mistakes onto others (and they have ways of avoiding it too) and the
> public ends up paying twice to get what they wanted in the first
> place.  Lowest bid isn't the only way.
>
> The most expensive tree planting is a failed planting, because you
> have to pay to do it again.
>
> Stephen Smith
> Urban Forest Associates
> Urban Forestry & Ecological Restoration
> http://www.u/
> fora.ca%2F&data=05%7C01%7C%7C95f1a65449f1423c9e8408dbce60f862%7C7a8ed4
> b96a0b4839be94c2c098cbedd9%7C0%7C0%7C638330688144411758%7CUnknown%7CTW
> FpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6
> Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=dUcMSumWAhHKI5nV5hVyI4yHH7bEfy6l9wNRrZA9e
> 98%3D&reserved=0
> Office/fax 416-423-3387
> Cell 416-707-2164
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: CANUFNET <canufnet-bounces at list.web.net> On Behalf Of Michael
> Richardson via CANUFNET
> Sent: Friday, October 6, 2023 7:34 AM
> To: Canadian Urban Forest Network <canufnet at list.web.net>
> Cc: Michael Richardson <mrtree at kos.net>
> Subject: Re: [CANUFNET] Looking for hard surface planting
> experiences/successes
>
> Barriers to successful planting include:
>
> - Too much water;
> - Too little water;
> - Deicing salt;
> - Lack of organic matter;
> - Wrong tree for site;
> - Lack of space;
> - Lack of funding;
> - People;
> etc.
>
> There are lots of good books concerning trees and urban sites but very
> few mention the important secret: site inspection and assessment and
> planning is needed by competent people prior to specifying plants, let
> alone planting.
> The possession of a professional stamp, certification, or
> qualification does not necessarily mean that the staff are experts for
> the specific task.
> There are failed planting attempts across southern Ontario
> municipalities; the cause of the failure is often due to lack of
> knowledgeable assessment planning.
>
> The question we should all be asking is: do we spend our money
> planting many trees and hoping for the best, or do we spend our money
> on a few trees and ensure they have the planning, space, and after
> care, to allow them to thrive and reach useful sizes.
>
> Shigo says Touch Trees; I suggest that you cannot plan for trees
> without Touching Soils at the initial phase.
>
> M
>
>
> > Dear urban forestry colleagues,
> >
> > We are working on a project with our local Business Improvement
> > Association in Ottawa to examine the barriers around successful hard
> > surface tree establishment along our main street, and how to
> > overcome them. We have completed a cursory literature review, but
> > with limited data, I am reaching out to the UF community with hopes
> > that some of you will be willing to share your anecdotal experiences
> > on what you feel are the best ways to plant trees successfully in hard surfaces.
> > We recognize that soil volume is a significant barrier, and will be
> > making recommendations to increase this, where possible, and
> > incorporate the use of soil cells, if feasible. For situations where
> > this is not an option, what are the next best alternatives?
> >
> > If any of you have experience in your areas with hard surface
> > planting, I would appreciate learning from you!
> >
> > Please feel free to contact me directly if you prefer:
> > astrid.nielsen at dendronforestry.ca
> >
> > Thank you,
> >
> > Astrid
> > ___________________________________
> > *Astrid Nielsen, *MFC
> > Ontario Registered Professional Forester ISA Certified Arborist??
> > ISA Tree Risk Assessment Qualified
> >
> > astrid.nielsen at dendron
> > <astrid.nielsen at dendronforestry.ca>forestry.ca
> > <astrid.nielsen at dendronforestry.ca>
> > +1.613.805.WOOD (9663)
> >
> > http://www/
> > .dendronforestry.ca%2F&data=05%7C01%7C%7C95f1a65449f1423c9e8408dbce6
> > 0f862%7C7a8ed4b96a0b4839be94c2c098cbedd9%7C0%7C0%7C63833068814441175
> > 8%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTi
> > I6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=JyJsXGWDDwUO%2BczspDV
> > QVtxuULM2q7w0qbOxbP8tod8%3D&reserved=0
> >
>
>
>
>
>
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