[Sust-mar] Zenn car debate continued . . . and a question for sust-mar members

[Peter Watson]

Hello Sust-Martians,

Seems the Zenn car has triggered a lively debate, with many good points 
being made and several more messages  now awaiting moderator approval. But 
there's currently a lengthy queue, so rather than posting the each new Zenn 
car submission one at a time over the coming weeks, I've compiled them all 
(unedited of course!) into one message. Please see below.

Though this does bring to mind a concern:  With the one message a day rule 
for this list, the queue for approving messages can sometimes get quite 
lengthy - there are 12 messages waiting right now.

So here's a question for the faithful sust-mar membership:

To reduce the queues and waiting time, would you prefer that the one message 
a day rule be increased to a maximum of two/day?

Advantages: Messages would work through the queue much quicker. It would 
allow for more discussion like this one on the Zenn car. More immediacy, 
less holdups, more posts and participation by everyone, and less time spent 
by me on prioritizing messages. I'd hopefully have to do less 'moderating'.

Disadvantages: More mail for everyone to process. In sust-mar's early 
(unmoderated) years,there were times when members left in droves because 
their inboxes were flooded out with too many messages and endless debate. 
And sometimes less is better - fewer messages can have more impact.

Is it a trade off worth considering? What do you think would be a good 
balance - leaving it at one/day, upping it to two/day, or going for 
somewhere in between (say 10 messages a week)?

Please send opinions to sust-mar-owner at list.web.net . We'll take a vote.

But back to the Zenn car . . .

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RE: The Zenn car

It's true that they COULD be powered with renewable energy. It's much more
likely that they WILL be powered by coal/oil generated energy. Let's put the
horse (energy source) before the (car)t.

As well, there's all the emissions that come from the manufacture and
distrbution of the car. All the exercise you don't get when you drive
instead of walk/bike etc. All the social interactions we don't get when
ensconced in
a car. All the infrastructure that cars need/use. All the death and
mutilation that comes from car accidents. Not to mention the psychological
mutilation that comes from the speeded up pace and uglification of our
surroundin
gs that car culture brings to our lives.

And I doubt very much if they are compostable!

Is there really any such thing as a GREEN car???

PEACE
Geoff Tanner

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Thanks for the info on this remarkable car. One important item missing
from the specifications of (and the discussion about) this car is the
actual running costs and environmental impact:

1) That it charges in 4-8 hours from a standard 120v AC outlet is
certainly convenient, but what current does it draw, or more to the
point, how many kilowatt-hours of electrical energy is consumed by a
charge? One would need to know this to estimate the cost of
operations. As was already pointed out, these kWh of energy do not
come emission-free.

2) Typically, lead-acid batteries like to be fully charged or slightly
undercharged, but not run right down.  Repeated deep cycling of
batteries eventually depletes the metal plates inside. How many
recharging cycles are the batteries expected to survive, and what
would be their replacement cost?  How do we assess the environmental
impact of battery manufacture, replacement, and recycling?

I believe that such a car is part of the solution, and answers to
these questions would allow a proper assessment of the vehicle in
relation to other options.

Dave Chapman

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Hi,

On Jan 11, 2008, at 7:49 AM, Dave Chapman wrote:

  "Thanks for the info on this remarkable car. One important item missing
from the specifications of (and the discussion about) this car is the actual
running costs and environmental impact:

  1) That it charges in 4-8 hours from a standard 120v AC outlet is
certainly convenient, but what current does it draw, or more to the point,
how many kilowatt-hours of electrical energy is consumed by a charge? One
would need to know this to estimate the cost of operations. As was already
pointed out, these kWh of energy do not come emission-free."



Two points:

1) I'm not in any way associated with the Zenn car company so I don't know
the answer to the question of how many kilowatt-hours of electrical energy
is consumed by a charge. I suggest you contact the company at:

http://www.zenncars.com/contact/contact_index.php

If you would like to know such technical details.

2) If you are recharging the batteries from solar, or wind, or hydroelectric
sources, these kWh of energy do come emission-free. ;->

The larger point, however, and one which I learned many years ago from Amory
Lovins, is that no human activity is without  consequences, and in
particular no form of power generation is without impact. Hydroelectric
power doesn't create emissions per se, but damming water courses and
regulating the flow of water impacts fish and aquatic invertebrates (some
for the better; some for the worse) and changing the amount and timing of
the flow of watercourses has impacts on adjacent habitats that draw on such
water. Tidal power doesn't create emissions but such turbines (in dams or
not) slow the flow of water, can effect sedimentation rates and patterns,
and can effect marine organisms. Wind turbines can impact birds and bats and
generate concerns with respect to "visual pollution." Etc. Perhaps employing
solar energy has the least of possible impacts.

Its hard to find a free lunch. Thus what we can do is to determine whether,
in terms of current concerns and priorities, what is a better course of
action. The Zenn car company makes cars with a particular (electric)
technology. It obviously cannot determine and is not responsible for how
individual jurisdictions, where their cars might be used, generate their
electric energy (fossil fuels, nuclear, hydroelectric, wind, tidal, solar,
etc.). When assessing the vehicle we need to bear that in mind and hold Zenn
responsible for what they have manufactured, and hold different
jurisdictions responsible for how they are generating power.



  "2) Typically, lead-acid batteries like to be fully charged or slightly
undercharged, but not run right down.  Repeated deep cycling of batteries
eventually depletes the metal plates inside. How many recharging cycles are
the batteries expected to survive, and what would be their replacement cost?
How do we assess the environmental impact of battery manufacture,
replacement, and recycling?

  I believe that such a car is part of the solution, and answers to these
questions would allow a proper assessment of the vehicle in relation to
other options."



And how does one asses the environmental impact of creating the glass that
is in the windshields or smelting the metal that is in the frames (perhaps
generated in furnaces or smelters using fossil fuels?), or of various
plastics that might be used within the car (likely created from some sort of
petroleum product), or at the end of the course of the car's life how all of
these components might be recycled, etc. ....? I would suggest that a full
assessment of this sort would be a major undertaking (if indeed it is even
completely possible) and not something that a consumer can contemplate doing
by themselves before purchasing a vehicle (which is where the consumer
rubber hits the economic road). Again, what is possible (and practical) to
do, is to bear more general concerns in mind (i.e. the contribution of
fossil fuel emissions to climate change) and take action accordingly.

Best wishes!

Chris

Christopher Majka
6252 Jubilee Rd., Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada B3H 2G5
c.majka at ns.sympatico.ca

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This is one of the problems with the Zenn car.

If I run a car off electricity, I am effectively running it off whatever
made that electricity. So, more accurate to think of the Zenn car as the
COAL-POWERED CAR ... until these solar filling stations spring up.

Even if it burns garbage and emits pure water, it is still a car. It
takes considerable energy to manufacture a car. One third of the energy
the car will ever consume is consumed before it leaves the lot, if I
remember right. So tremendous resources and energy to build them.

The Zenn car runs on roads. Road building fractures wilderness and
creates urban sprawl ... in other words the electric (or coal) car has
many of the same issues as a gasoline car. It can still kill people.

Finally, with a car like this, the "guilt per mile" factor decreases. To
recoup the higher initial investment, people may tend to drive them
more. This contributes to congestion and other issues, like any car. And
leads to more not less energy consumption and environmental impact.

So on the one hand, it might seem great to replace every SUV with a Zenn
(ignoring the issue of disposing all those old cars) ... but on the
other hand, still plenty of environmental issues with the Zenn.

So, keep cycling, walking and riding the bus (and rails)!
(Maybe Zenn bus is the answer!)

~Paul